tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post902001077639120853..comments2024-03-20T02:49:17.606-07:00Comments on Between Fact and Fiction: Critiquing With ClassNatalie Whipplehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09978251567306345129noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-60449929042681644632010-01-09T01:29:21.893-08:002010-01-09T01:29:21.893-08:00ha! hahahaha ::sobbing::
Your one mean day was jo...ha! hahahaha ::sobbing::<br /><br />Your one mean day was journalism school EVERY day. And people wonder why I hated it.<br /><br />That's also Publisher's Weekly on my Amazon contest novel. sigh.52 Faceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05234139554435412232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-21609280644412651542010-01-03T18:40:13.030-08:002010-01-03T18:40:13.030-08:00This post should be required reading for all membe...This post should be required reading for all members of writing groups. In fact, I'm going to post it to the message board of my writing group. Great post!Kristanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04771013578685419826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-30235224177738962032009-05-08T14:15:00.000-07:002009-05-08T14:15:00.000-07:00I totally agree with this post, Natalie. I had bee...I totally agree with this post, Natalie. I had been part of a critique group until recently and had mostly good experiences. But I took real exception to one person comparing my writing to something that was "half dead," or something to that effect. I let him know it, too.<br /><br />I think when you're looking at someone else's work you have to pick your battles. If you red mark every last little thing, I think the writer is going to turn a deaf ear and just think you're a jerk. I think there's a fine line between being helpful and constructive and being totally annoying.<br /><br />Good post!Scott Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744436601853807608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-35628122444628255832009-05-05T17:13:00.000-07:002009-05-05T17:13:00.000-07:00I had my first-ever Round Table critique this last...I had my first-ever Round Table critique this last weekend. I wish I had read this beforehand. Anyway, I was had a nice critic and a not-nice critic...both who said essentially the same thing. The difference in delivery really affects how much you want to accept the advice.Jessie Oliveroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06232456334069794107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-57467296585867869412009-05-05T12:35:00.000-07:002009-05-05T12:35:00.000-07:00What a great post - the rules and the examples you...What a great post - the rules and the examples you gave were all really excellent!Kate Karyus Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15581176126578915929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-53483220991922878302009-05-05T10:42:00.000-07:002009-05-05T10:42:00.000-07:00What a wonderful reminder. I'm sure I come across...What a wonderful reminder. I'm sure I come across as harsh sometimes, but that's not my intension. I'll have to be more careful.<br /><br />Since you're a writer, I thought I'd mention there's a writers' support group you might be interested in. It's called Writers_on_Writing. If you want to know more, check out my blog. I posted some info about it yesterday. Maybe you know other writers who might want to join? The group's a SUPPORT group, not a critique group for writers 18 years or older. <br /><br />Lynnette Labelle<br />http://lynnettelabelle.blogspot.comLynnette Labellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03227593491562480538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-8920957062151654952009-05-05T08:33:00.000-07:002009-05-05T08:33:00.000-07:00This is really great and so true. I have a tenden...This is really great and so true. I have a tendency to be harsher than I mean to simply because when your editing it's so much easier and faster to just say it straight. And sometimes I forget to remind the reader that I really do like their work too (otherwise why would I bother critiquing it in depth). I know how hard it is for me to hear harsh critique even when it's true. On the other hand if I feel like a reader likes my work and is invested I'm much more likely to appreciate their forthright feedback. This was a good reminder for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-61907903754279884362009-05-04T23:04:00.000-07:002009-05-04T23:04:00.000-07:00Great post.
And of course, all of this applies eq...Great post.<br /><br />And of course, all of this applies equally to the writer as he/she tackles each stage of the writing.<br /><br />Too harsh a critic? It doesn't get written or you murder all your best stuff.<br /><br />In love with yourself? The horror sentence lingers mid-paragraph like a tapeworm.Whirlochrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09846196906206886945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-21777022429452622452009-05-04T18:52:00.000-07:002009-05-04T18:52:00.000-07:00Ha! Adam that's funny. I'm so going to have to try...Ha! Adam that's funny. I'm so going to have to try it. <br /><br />Balsamic is sweeter than straight vinegar so I'd definitely have to see if that makes a difference...oh, this is a third grade science project in the making...must log away for when I have a third grader.Natalie Whipplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09978251567306345129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-91819946945618910592009-05-04T18:49:00.000-07:002009-05-04T18:49:00.000-07:00Oh, and regarding catching flies with honey, it tu...Oh, and regarding catching flies with honey, it turns out <A HREF="http://xkcd.com/357/" REL="nofollow">it's not true</A> ;-)Adam Heinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02225813532455467868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-55276616382768922392009-05-04T18:48:00.000-07:002009-05-04T18:48:00.000-07:00Really excellent points. In a poetry class I took ...Really excellent points. In a poetry class I took once, we had three (very similar) rules:<br /><br />(1) Be specific.<br />(2) You have to say at least one good thing and one bad thing about the work (i.e. can't say "This is perfect" or "There's nothing good about this" even if you <I>are</I> being specific).<br />(3) The author has to keep their mouth shut the entire time.<br /><br />Obviously #3 was because the critiques were done face-to-face, but I think it can apply over e-mail too. It's so easy to respond back with explanations and justifications, and while that makes us feel better, it doesn't actually help the manuscript any. If the reader didn't get it, they didn't get it. Explaining it after the fact won't help.Adam Heinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02225813532455467868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-22142709782691210472009-05-04T18:43:00.000-07:002009-05-04T18:43:00.000-07:00Ooo, nice post! Though I admit I am the most guilt...Ooo, nice post! Though I admit I am the most guilty person for saying only "love it!" though mine is usually the flamboyant, over-the-top, "LOVELOVELOVELOVE" that is just as equally unhelpful, but bigger. Just can't stop myself sometimes though...Sara Raaschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01196505323463444186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-9952873200147630942009-05-04T17:17:00.000-07:002009-05-04T17:17:00.000-07:00I definitely hate when you give someone your work,...I definitely hate when you give someone your work, asking them to critique it, and all they say is "It was good."<br /><br />Really? Nothing else? Thanks. I could've told myself that if I wanted to.Mariah Irvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15181111151756005743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-52107632627148012362009-05-04T12:58:00.000-07:002009-05-04T12:58:00.000-07:00It's hard not to be defensive about our own work, ...It's hard not to be defensive about our own work, but hard not to focus on the negative when we're reading other work, either.<br /><br />I like the sandwich method of critiquing. GOOD STUFF... you can fix this stuff... GOOD STUFF.<br /><br />Keeping a positive attitude on both ends, and remaining honest and kind are key. I have received some harsh critiques recently, but none have hurt me enough to make me stop writing. I've been growing a thick skin lately. Essential in this business.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-34175120489623222482009-05-04T12:24:00.000-07:002009-05-04T12:24:00.000-07:00Carrie, I will take every "love this" out there. T...Carrie, I will take every "love this" out there. Those words make me all warm and fuzzy even now. I was just pointing out that you can even make those compliments helpful by saying why it worked. <br /><br />That's so funny about your friend—I've done that. Since then I've learned to ask what they want from me, because I tend to get carried away otherwise.Natalie Whipplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09978251567306345129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-41602575084079562462009-05-04T12:18:00.000-07:002009-05-04T12:18:00.000-07:00Gosh, yes. What you said about the critique needin...Gosh, yes. What you said about the critique needing to be about THEM and not about YOU? That's such a hard lesson to learn, and I think we've all got to do it. I once traded critiques with a friend, and I covered his in comments (in sparkly purple pen, no less), and he gave mine back with "Good job!" scrawled across the top and nothing else. He was upset at me for tearing him apart when he just wanted a little encouragement; I was upset at him because I wanted in-depth feedback. If we'd talked it over in the first place, we wouldn't have had that problem.<br /><br />Admission time: I use phrases like "love this!" all the time. But then in my overall comments, I add a general statement as to the specifics, such as: I love how you work specific and interesting elements about the world seamlessly into the story. It really adds depth to the setting without feeling like an info drop. I've marked specific places where I was gnashing my teeth in envy over this.<br /><br />So I do think it's possible to "Love this" in a constructive way. :)Carrie Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14893023777471521703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-41996142754131638802009-05-04T11:51:00.000-07:002009-05-04T11:51:00.000-07:00These are fantastic. Thanks for the reminders :)These are <I>fantastic</I>. Thanks for the reminders :)Stephanie Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01327218987542530574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-81939988235218227882009-05-04T11:00:00.000-07:002009-05-04T11:00:00.000-07:00I would add another thought to this onversation......I would add another thought to this onversation... Just as you want to highlight specific problem areas and not make vague comments such as, "Your characterization needs a lot of work," so also you want to be specific with positive remarks.<br /><br />Sadly, I didn't really understand this when I was critiquing larger volumes of stories in college. I finally got it when I was in grad school grading papers and I had a student come up to me confused.<br /><br />"So, Nevets," she said, "I don't get it. You said, 'Good paper,' at the top, and at the end you said I really delivered my main points well, but inbetween all I see is problems. What's going on?"<br /><br />Oops.C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-91529608117701158522009-05-04T10:52:00.000-07:002009-05-04T10:52:00.000-07:00That is really really helpful Natalie. Thank you ...That is really really helpful Natalie. Thank you xxxJaneyVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04951739945670483199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-59378805542290420302009-05-04T10:33:00.000-07:002009-05-04T10:33:00.000-07:00Sorry Janey! I do blog too much, heh.
As for you...Sorry Janey! I do blog too much, heh. <br /><br />As for your question. I ask my readers for all they are willing to give. I understand that not everyone has time to line edit my work. Nor would I ask them to do that. <br /><br />What I personally expect from my readers are plot and character issues first and foremost. Finding holes, unclear passages, confusing motivations. Those are the things I care about most. <br /><br />Then I love when people point out repetitiveness. I tend to use the same words/phrases/ideas to death without noticing. I do want to remove them, I just can see it all the time.<br /><br />After that, I really appreciate people catching typos, but after several runs I can usually find those myself, especially when I do a paper edit.Natalie Whipplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09978251567306345129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-833827154279711892009-05-04T10:32:00.000-07:002009-05-04T10:32:00.000-07:00Good stuff, Natalie. I agree that it doesn't help ...Good stuff, Natalie. I agree that it doesn't help to be abrasive, people either give up or write you off.fairyhedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14141089706966852951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-5015974689893464062009-05-04T10:28:00.000-07:002009-05-04T10:28:00.000-07:00Thank you for this post Natalie. We have all been...Thank you for this post Natalie. We have all been given good (one hopes) instruction on <I>how</I> to write but most of us have had very little instruction on how to give a <B>good</B> critique. I always try to remember that blood has been sweated to get to the point where someone else is reading it. <br /><br />Do you think that the depth of the critique should vary depending on whether it's an early draft or if the writer feels it's a "finished" MS? I'd like to know what a writer would expect from me at differing stages.<br /><br />I'm trying to catch up on the week I missed. My word you write a lot!JaneyVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04951739945670483199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-1827344156572762612009-05-04T10:06:00.000-07:002009-05-04T10:06:00.000-07:00Excellent points, Natalie. I would also add that ...Excellent points, Natalie. I would also add that it's even better if you list postive aspects at the very beginning and at the end so that no matter how you chew up the story, you begin and end on a positive note.writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-37140075307552664862009-05-04T10:01:00.000-07:002009-05-04T10:01:00.000-07:00An excellent post Natalie! It really helps when th...An excellent post Natalie! It really helps when the critter is respectful even if they are telling you that things need to change. It is especially important to find something to compliment. It helps the writer know that they can make something work. <br /><br />There are times though that I think it is easier to start over than to fix what's wrong.lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774363178370829558.post-71571602656605449642009-05-04T08:52:00.000-07:002009-05-04T08:52:00.000-07:00Exactly, Renee. If you really want to help a write...Exactly, Renee. If you really want to help a writer—treat them with respect. They will be less likely to listen if you're rude.Natalie Whipplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09978251567306345129noreply@blogger.com